11. Farm succession - la relève

Farm succession - la relève - is one of the biggest challenges facing agriculture in Quebec today. With thousands of farmers approaching retirement age and farmland prices rising, the question of who will take over the next generation of farms has become one of the defining issues for agriculture.

Without successful succession, farms risk being consolidated, sold, or lost altogether. Supporting la relève isn’t just about preserving family farms - it’s about food sovereignty, rural vitality, and the future of agriculture in Quebec.

In this episode, we explore what it really takes to pass a farm on: financially, emotionally, and culturally. From family dynamics to policy supports, we dig into the realities behind keeping farms alive across generations.

• Hugh Maynard speaks with Claudia Meganck, director of ARAMO and member of the Fédération de la relève agricole du Québec (Montérégie ouest), about the next generation of farmers and the future of agriculture in Quebec.
• Sarah Rennie talks with Nick Oakley, a business development lead with Farm Management Canada about navigating farm transitions and the importance of starting the planning process before it’s too late.
• Sarah also interviews Noel Erskine, a fifth generation dairy farmer who successfully took over his family’s farm in Hinchinbrooke.
• Mackenzie Peddie, a junior reporter with the Gleaner, recently took part in the Quebec 4-H Innovative Ag Tour in Sawyerville. She caught up with some 4-H kids during the event to chat about their future plans in farming. 
• Callan Forrester, The Gleaner’s news reporter, interviews Christina Franc, the new CEO of 4-H Canada, about succession planning and how 4-H teaches young farmers the necessary skills to be ready when the time comes to take over. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Farm to Food podcast.

We’d like to thank our sponsors for helping bring this initiative to life: Desjardins, the Livestock Breeders’ Association and Quinn Farm in Notre-Dame-de-l’Île-Perrot for their promotional support.

We also wish to thank the Community Media Strategic Support Fund and the Government of Canada for their financial support for this project, as well as the Bourses d’initiatives en entrepreneuriat collectif for their contribution toward equipping the podcast studio.

This program is made possible thanks to the dedicated work of the volunteer directors on the board of Châteauguay Valley Community Information Services (CVCIS), a non-profit social enterprise with charitable status. We would love your support to help keep this podcast going.

Donations can be made at farmtofood.ca, and we can issue tax receipts for donations over $25.

Farm to Food Podcast Credits:

Hugh Maynard – Host

Jackie Rourke – Producer

Sarah Rennie – News Editor

Callan Forrester – Reporter

Stacey Pennington – Audio Production

Dianna Chycki, sales & marketing

…and of course, Farmer Phil — who’s farm-tastic!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well, hello again, my farmastic friends. Farmer Phil here, introducing this week's podcast all about succession planning on the farm. Um my goodness, what a loaded loaded subject there. So much to talk about. How do we go about it? There's so many different ways of going about it. Uh it could go on to the next generation. The farm can go on to someone who's not in the family at all. So many different ways of doing it. It's a subject that is near and dear to my wife, Stephanie and I's uh hearts. It's something that we took seriously, and it was a bit of a challenge doing the succession planning for my parents to ourselves, and we're gonna try and avoid that problem with our boys. We're gonna be living off the farm, Stephanie and I. And uh hopefully getting out of the way for our kids to enjoy the place. We'll be there to help them out. But um, looking forward to retiring off the farm, and that's something that we should should be talking about. So without further ado, here is this week's Farm to Food Podcast all about succession planning. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Welcome to the Farm to Food Podcast. I'm Hugh Maynard, publisher of the Gleaner newspaper, the team that brings you this podcast every second week. So farm succession is one of the biggest issues facing agriculture today, not just in Quebec, but across Canada, even North America. Across Quebec, thousands of farmers are approaching retirement age. And the question is simple but critical. Who will take over the farms of the future? For young people interested in agriculture, the opportunities are real, but so are the challenges, from rising farmland prices to the complexity of transferring family operations from one generation to the next. To talk about this topic, about the next generation of farmers and the future of agriculture in Quebec, I'm joined today by Claudia Migan, who is the director for Amaro, which is the association representing young farmers in the Montreji West region, which is the Chattagay Valley, southwest of Montreal. She's also then, of course, a member of the provincial Federation de la Relève, Agriculture du Quebec. And I love that name, La Releve. It really does uh it's much better in French than it is in in English about giving an image of the uh of the future of farming.

Claudia Meganck

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Welcome, Claudia.

SPEAKER_10 2:42

Hi, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So for listeners who may not know these organizations, give us a brief description of what the Federation de la Relève du Québec is and who does it represent.

SPEAKER_10 2:53

So, really, the Federation of the Relève Agricoles du Québec, um, it's for young farmers uh from 16 to 39. So uh aspiring young farmers or already established young farmers. And the goal of the organization is really to help young farmers establish themselves and eventually to prosper on their farms if you're already established. The association does it sort of directly through different uh uh ways that they can help, or more indirectly politically, they advocate for us. And being uh a syndicate, right, we can we can vote propositions and try to try to change a bit the policies that are in place to help uh help more young farmers.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Right. And the the Federation, which is referred to uh locally as FRAC, is not unique in Canada, but it certainly is unique in its structure, its scope, it has a budget, it's as you point out, a syndicate affiliated with the Union des Producteurs Agricole, it has official status, has a lot of tools at its uh disposal. Um and so are the members who are aspiring farmers mostly from farm families like yourself in God Manchester, or um are they from outside agriculture trying to get in? So people like myself who didn't come from a farm and try to become a farmer?

SPEAKER_10 4:28

So I I would think that most of the members are from farms, but I don't know the exact statistics. But I do think that there is a growing number of uh people that aren't related to farm families that would like to take over that are interested into getting into AG, um, but I don't know the exact statistic.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Right. So it's mostly farm families that are um trying to assist their younger members to become organized and participate in the in in the family farm.

SPEAKER_10 4:59

Yes, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

And it is an important issue because, again, the average age, I'm not quite sure whether it's 55 or 58 or 60, but the majority of farmers are well over uh 55. And so in the next 10 to 20 years, uh a good segment of farmers are going to be retiring uh in in this province. And so it's critically important to uh be able to assist uh the young farmers to get in place. So what are some of the barriers? What are the challenges that you have to face in taking over a farm?

SPEAKER_10 5:33

I think there's there's many, but I find um one of the biggest ones is the access to land, because in the last, I think it's uh 20 years or so, the price of land has increased astronomically. And as young farmers, well, we come at it with very little resources financially. And so if we want to be able to keep farming or to start farming, well, often we need a donation from our parents or to be involved with family that already has a farm, because to finance or to buy a farm from scratch is extremely difficult. Although some do do it, there are uh programs to try to help those people. There's also the profitability of businesses that's more difficult because often when you're taking over, there's uh you have a higher debt load because you're just starting. You have also access to financing as a young person. It can be more difficult to establish yourself and to be credible to financial institutions. There's also the input costs that have gone up significantly in the last maybe 20 years. So we're starting and we have to buy equipment, and that's the inflation has just gone crazy. Another thing is when you're transferring a farm, there's the whole intergenerational issues that can arise because you're you're farming in my case with my mom and dad, who I love to bits, but it can be difficult because you go from a relationship of mom and dad to now we're business partners. Yeah, there's like a hierarchy change. Um I'm kind of like an equal, whereas it used to be I was always their daughter. Now we're making financial decisions together. And um, I know too that in IG it's very particular that we can be so young and have access to leadership positions or be at the head of a company. Whereas in many corporate uh in the corporate world or the corporate sector, you have to be much older, have a lot more experience before you can be making kind of these chief decisions on the farm.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Right. So you're bossing your parents around already, yes, in the process. But there's another side to the your farm is actually probably quite lucky in that you've decided to stay with the farm and make it a profession, a career. But there are many farms who don't have any children who are interested. Are there ways and means that those farms, those farm families, can find somebody to be a successor?

SPEAKER_10 8:28

I know there's um there's this um uh organization called L'Artaire that helps if you have a farm and you'd really like to transfer it, but you don't have a relève, that um they'll actually help to try to pair you with uh young aspiring farmers. But I I know that it's quite difficult right now that the organization is lacking funding because it's uh I'm pretty sure government run. So that was a really good organization that still exists in Quebec, but I think the in Montre Regie wasn't as popular, and so the funding was I think being cut as we speak kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Well, it's a challenge because as you pointed out, cost of land, for example, has gone up astronomically. And to put that in perspective, it ranges uh in order of twenty to twenty-five thousand dollars uh an acre. Um and if you consider that you need 200 acres minimum to be able to generate enough income, you're already into a few million dollars, and yourself as a dairy farmer, you've got to buy the quota, right? And then there's all the attractors, the machinery, and everything goes along with it. So what tools are available through the government, for example? There's the Young Farmers Startup Grant, which again is unique to Quebec. And so it's uh it's a lump sum payment uh at the beginning of your career when you first purchased the farm to help you invest in a in a project. It's not available anywhere else in Canada. So are those tools um readily available? Are they adequate? Um there things that perhaps the government um could do more?

SPEAKER_10 10:07

So I think right now in Quebec we're very lucky to have the programs we do have, but I know the FRAC has been um trying to advocate and push to have more or to have the programs that we already have increased. So let's say when I graduated from McDonnell College in 2017, uh we were allowed $50,000 as a startup grant from the Financière Guerrico du Québec, but that amount hasn't changed in many, many years.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Many years, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 10:38

But the price of equipment, the price of land, everything else has gone up astronomically. So that's where it becomes kind of difficult, is that the the program doesn't adapt with as the times change. And I know let's say the MAPAC has uh certain programs where sometimes they'll they'll do um there was a a program territoire et relève. So you could ask for a grant uh if you made an investment, but that one as well, you could you could get the grant if you bought equipment, but you could only buy new equipment. So I know the the the FRAC, one of the things they suggested is well, let us buy used equipment. We could find a better deal, but it hasn't been changed yet. So I think a lot of times what we ask for is that the amounts be increased and also to kind of be a bit more creative about it. We're trying to keep our budgets uh as tight and financially feasible, but there are other ways to do it as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

So your parents uh emigrated to Canada from Belgium back in the 1980s, seeking a better future in farming?

SPEAKER_10 11:47

My my dad immigrated, but not my mom.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Okay, she was she was here already waiting. All right, but he's made a go of it and he's lucky that you've decided to jump in and continue on. So, what advice would you give to a young person like yourself, whether they have a farm or they don't, uh, in terms of being able to position themselves to take over the family farm or to be able to buy into a family farm in the future?

SPEAKER_10 12:15

I'd say the very first thing to do is get an education or uh follow um, there's all kinds of training programs available, be it uh DAP, uh a DEC university. Um, the more information and knowledge you go get beforehand, not only does it help you when you actually go to work in the industry, but also for all the financial institutions, it shows them that you're competent. It shows them that you're willing to learn, that you're that you're getting the information. Um, I think it's also really important if you're taking over a farm, well, that the communication is really well uh between family members. And if you're if you're taking over a farm from someone that's not in your family, well, communication is going to be just as important so that everybody's on the same page.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, it's a very um it's a very complex process, right? It's uh a lot of financing, there's taxes that are involved, um, um, and then there's the human element, which of course is probably the most variable of all of them. So you're you're on your way. Um how do you see the next 20 years if you could look down where you'd uh like to be, having stepped in as a young farmer and moved it along um successfully?

SPEAKER_10 13:37

Well, one thing I also forgot to mention is is uh surrounding ourselves with the best professionals, uh most knowledgeable when possible. And for me, looking forward in the next 20 years, it starts all with that. So now I've been on the farm just long enough that we kind of have around us a bunch of really good consultants or people that we trust that'll help us keep moving forward. So now it's to look with them, okay, what are the next steps in the transfer just to keep growing the business and make sure that my parents get a nice retirement and uh trying to keep everything in harmony uh as much that the business runs, that the cows are healthy, and that we're able to make a go of it, and that the younger generation and also make sure that the the successors that they're having a nice retirement.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Right. Because farmers are traditionally asset rich, right? They own a lot of things, but not as much cash uh is available to put into pension pans and other kinds of things that uh people who work for government corporations and other professions are able to do.

SPEAKER_10 14:51

And and I think that's why too, you do see some farms that'll say, well, why would I transfer to my kids when I could just sell everything? Right, make some money. Yeah, become almost a millionaire. But then yeah, so that becomes another it's a it's positive and negative at the same time because it can be an issue or it can be your greatest asset.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Well, you're obviously dedicated to the cause, as they say, right? Wish you all the success in the future.

SPEAKER_10 15:23

Thank you.

Nick Oakley

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Nick Oakley is a business development lead with Farm Management Canada, which is a national organization that looks at farm management, um, does research and and um workshops and those kinds of things, as well as being part owner of an agritourism business just outside of Perth in Ontario. Nick recently spoke at a UPA meeting, that's the Union des Producteurs Agricoles, the general farm organization in Quebec, at a meet-and-greet event for the English-speaking farm community in the Montreal G. He was talking about navigating farm transitions, the importance of good communication and proper planning. Afterwards, our news editor, Sarah Rennie, had the chance to talk with Nick for Farm to Food.

SPEAKER_08 16:24

I'm here with Nick Oakley, who is a business development lead with Farm Management Canada. I thank you so much for doing this. So maybe let's start at the very beginning. So, what is succession planning and and why is it important?

SPEAKER_04 16:38

Yeah, a great question. And I think uh one that a lot of farmers are are thinking about right now. The definition or or the way in which we've interpreted it is is kind of the intergenerational transfer uh of a farm. And maybe it's not necessarily just mom and dad down to a son or a daughter or a niece or a nephew, but like really the transfer of farm from one generation, one family to another. And we know that it's important because every single farm is gonna go through a transition at some point. Maybe it doesn't look like the stereotypical transition down to your firstborn son, which is used to be common in the past. Every farm is gonna go through that. No one is gonna be living forever, and and you can't be farming forever. And if you want to see your farm continue, you have to find somebody to to continue it for you. So the the stats that that we've been throwing out there, and I believe it was BDO who who came out with it, is that 75% of farms are gonna change hands over the next 10 years. The scary part about that is that we're in like year nine or 10 of that stat, like it came out that long ago, that farms are transitioning now, or should be transitioning now, or are at least sniffing around or thinking about or looking to transition now. And so the incredible position that we're in is that we can give people the education of farm transition. Here are some considerations, here are some common pain points, here are some areas of resistance, and these are some suggested titles of people that could you could go to for help. These are some resources, these are some even small things like conversation starters, how to start the conversation with somebody else. So it's just it's it doesn't matter your commodity, your farm size, your location across the country, across the world, every farm will transition, and it's so important to do it properly.

SPEAKER_08 18:34

So, like that's 75% of farms are gonna transition, like you said, now that's that's an that's a staggering number. So, how many of those farms actually are actively planning?

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Yeah, and that's a that's a great one. That's the stat we usually follow that up with is that 12% of Canadian farmers have a farm transition plan, and 13% when we last kind of looked in on this are working on it. So that's about 25% of Canada's farms have a farm transition plan. We know 75% in the last few years or the next few years are going to be going through a transition. There's a large way to go to figure that out. And the thing that I always like to say is that you can't really start thinking about transitioning too early, but you can absolutely start thinking about it too late. Um, so the work that we're doing here at Farm Management Canada to try and encourage farm transition plans, a formal plan, going through it, even just starting that conversation. I know when I was in Hemmingbird at at that UPA farmer meet and greet, it was, I didn't, nobody left listening to me with a farm transition plan in hand. I wish that could be the case. That would be incredible. But I'm hoping that anytime we're on stage, anytime we somebody reads one of our resources or or checks in on some of the things we do, that it helps just push them down the road a little bit further towards a farm transition plan. Maybe it's just helping them get unstuck. Maybe it's just helping them figure out how to talk to somebody about it. Maybe it's getting them to really think, what are my priorities here in a farm transition plan? How would I like to see it go forward? But we know that that just leaving it to somebody's will um is is not uh a scenario that that works for anybody. The only people that win in that are are the government with all the taxes you're gonna have to pay on that, or lawyers for for all the legal fees that you'll have to pay out to to try and sort through a will, and especially if it's contested or something like that. So let's get these plans in place early and and give everybody peace of mind, knowing what the plan is that will happen to the farm when uh when it's time to actually transition it.

SPEAKER_08 20:43

And so when you talk about a transition plan, like this doesn't have to be this huge, overwhelming process, I imagine.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

I think it's it's definitely a process that isn't a let's sit down for 10 minutes and here's our plan away we go. Some processes are incredibly simple. Um, I was in London at one of our our bridging the gap farm transition workshops, and uh farmer came up to myself and and one of the presenters there and said, Here's our situation. Um, how long do you think it would take, or or what would be the cost to uh to help us with this transition plan? It's not something that we do, but but our presenter there does, and he said, No joke with you, I can sit down with you in about 10 minutes and draw that out for you because it was so we already know what's gonna happen. We've talked to everybody about it. It's one single um child that's gonna be taking it on, and here we go, and it's all been sorted. I think a lot of the times and when people come to the table, they don't have everything sorted like that. They haven't talked to everybody and heard about um what their desires or concerns are in a in for the farm going forward. So there is a uh a bigger conversation that needs to be had for sure. Once once you can sort through everybody's kind of um desires for the farm. Everybody's concerns and really align on that. I think the actual plan and getting it onto paper is probably the easiest part of it. Sorting through the stuff that an accountant or a lender or your financial advisor or your lawyer might want to go through. That's I think the easier part than actually sitting down and talking to folks about, hey, when I'm not here, which is itself even a big topic, a big thing to think about. When I'm not here, this is what I would love to see happen with the farm. If I'm 10 years after I'm gone, I would love to see the farm be thriving in this way with the family all helping out, or whatever that looks like. Often I think the the trickiest part here is just getting the conversation started. Um we hear so often across the country how do I get my dad to talk about farm transition? How can I talk to my mom about this? They they don't really want to talk about it. They say it's all settled in the will. How do I get them to have a conversation before we open their will and and discover what they've left and who they've left it to? So I think that portion of it, getting it all settled and sorted out, really makes up most of the transition plan. Putting that down onto paper, I think, is the easiest part of all, uh, especially if you have a great team of advisors or or people on your farm transition team working for you.

SPEAKER_08 23:21

Yeah. So I'm wondering, uh quite a number of farms out here have transitioned where the ownership is is sort of handed down to to children or to family. Um, but the older generation is still on the farm and is you know, still contributing, still working on the farm, those sorts of things. And so it's a much, it seems like those might be a more, I'm gonna assume not a simpler transition, but that you know it's not quite such a um a finite transition.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

I think, yeah, I think you're right. And that's it's it's so interesting in in farm transitions that you'll get cases where uh maybe mom and dad, once they're done farming, they want to be gone. They maybe they want to spend half a year in Mexico and um and or Florida and and just be warm. And you know what, kids, you got it, you're ready to go. I don't want to be here. I think a lot of the time, though, farmers as they're aging, farming is such an identity for them. It it's it's who they are, it's what they've always known very often. They grew up farming too, so it's just what they've always known. So I think there's a loss of identity that happens there where they don't want to talk about, answer those questions or go down a transition plan because they can't really imagine themselves not farming. And and it might be in their head that okay, when when son or daughter or whoever it is are coming and transitioning, that means I can't be on the farm. That means I'm gonna have to stop. Um we have a wonderful friend uh of our organization um in the States, his name is Dick Whitman, and he spoke at one of our conferences, and and the big takeaway um or his big key message was how to get out of the way without going away. And it's kind of that same way that that you can move out of the way for the next generation to come up and take the leadership and and maybe ownership and what that looks like on the farm and really be the one kind of calling the shots, be the one who's managing the farm. But it doesn't mean that you have to sit inside and watch them from your window all day long. Uh often the cases, and we we talk to that incoming generation a lot, and they say, absolutely not. I need my mom and dad. I need to hear about, hey, I've never planted in this back corner because of the flooding that happened, or because I need those little tips and tricks. And maybe I just also I need some some more people, I need some manpower, I need some woman power, I need somebody to to help out still. We can't survive if you just go away for your knowledge and and your guidance and your mentorship. So bringing it all the back to having that conversation about what would it ideally, what would that look like to you? Um, and I think often the case is once you start having those conversations that you realize you're a lot more in line than you think you are. That maybe mom and dad are thinking they're gonna just want me gone. They don't want to see me on a tractor again. And and daughter or son might be thinking, absolutely, I need you in the combine on harvest time. I need you to still be helping here. That doesn't mean you need to go away, but it's it can become really empowering to see a successful transition where the next generation is taking the lead. So I think that's such an uh an interesting point um to explore and and just brings us all back to to communicating, start that conversation about what you want to see, what you want to do and your role in that in that operation, but it doesn't mean that you can never step foot on the farm anymore. Maybe it means it means mom and dad want to do these select few tasks. Maybe it's time of year, maybe it's um, hey, in the morning, I just want to go out and check check the cow. Sure, that's a useful thing for the farm to do. And if that's where they see themselves in the future, then then that could be an absolute win for everybody. So start talking about these expectations, start talking about what you want to get out of the farm transition, what you would like to see a successful transition look like in five years. What would your role be? Learn about what everyone else is is seeing there. And and I feel oftentimes that there's a lot more alignment than most people think.

SPEAKER_08 27:26

Yeah. And so I I mean, I heard you talk about, you know, some of the positives just now. I mean, I'm sure that that is a positive thing, having that conversation. I'm sure it takes a lot of pressure off of people's shoulders too, once it's done, once you've started that conversation. But what can go wrong? Like you said, leaving everything in a will, this is just not a good idea. How how can this go bad?

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's such an unfortunate thing to be to be exploring. But the reality is that it can go bad without proper preparation. It often does go bad. And going bad, I think, means A, that you're paying a lot more in taxes, um, in capital gains or or what have you, um, than you'd like to be. And and then and that could absolutely be avoided by by speaking with the right people and um and planning it out properly. But even setting the business stuff aside, it can go wrong when you open up your will and you realize that, hey, you thought maybe you were getting half the farm and and a sibling was getting half the farm, and you realized that, oh no, they're getting it all, and that's not what I wanted. Farming, I think, unlike any other industry, it's so ingrained in the lifestyle. It's not another business where in the morning at seven o'clock you get up and you drive over there and you run in, and at six o'clock you come home. Like farming is a lifestyle, and so there's so many more emotions I feel like attached to that because it's not just talking about the business, it's about often the family home that you grew up in, um, the land that you you spend all your childhood on. So leaving things up to the will is is can really be damaging for relationships after that. When all of a sudden, siblings who are best friends growing up, they see uh or feel like there's been an injustice here and it's not fair, or it might not be equal, and and that's a big debate too. Um, but you see you often see relationships being severed um because of that. And and the way in which, I mean, every the price on everything is going up. The price of land and values and input costs and everything are going up, but it's not estates are not uh a million or two million dollars now on a lot of farms. We're talking tens of millions or 20 million dollar farm. And it it's so unfortunate, but your best friend, your sibling, your best friend growing up becomes your enemy really quickly. So, in order to preserve all family harmony too, after that, I think settling um everything before uh before the will and having it properly laid out and a transition happening before a will needs to be read is um is absolutely the way to go. There's a lot of farmers, unfortunately, and and farm transition is such a in succession, it's such an emotional subject that we'll be at a trade show or an event, um, they learn that we are involved in in educating in farm transitions, and and the tears start flowing as they're sharing their story and the pain points that they've experienced. And it's not crying um and and being emotional that my brother got three million dollars valuation more than I did, and how unfair was that? It's my brother doesn't talk to me anymore, my sister won't speak with my kids and and they don't interact anymore because we've lost those relationships. So, in the story that that unfortunately was true that I was sharing in Hemmingford, there yes, there is uh the business side of that story that is really unfortunate that that people will be paying out lots of dollars and things like that. But the true side is that relationships, family relationships are being severed and to a point that they may never be repaired. And I think that's a really the really most unfortunate part of this is these strong farm families who together built these incredibly successful farms are now they're not gonna have those Christmases together, they're not gonna have Thanksgivings around the table. So yes, we are the whole purpose of Farm Management Canada is to help farmers with the business side. So I I don't often say, let's put aside that business, the business argument of the business case, but bigger than the business is the family relationships. And and so not only are we talking in a farm transition and a farm transition plan about successfully transferring the business, but it's doing so in a way that maintains family harmony and and ensures relationships past the transition.

SPEAKER_08 32:13

Yeah, because obviously, you know, we sort of touched on this earlier, like in this area, we've got a lot of like, you know, some fourth, fifth generation farms. And it used to be, you know, there there was no lawyers involved. There was no, you know, your your sons stayed on the farm, your daughters stayed on the farm, maybe your daughters were sort of married off onto other farms, you know, if we go back a number of years, and these kinds of conversations maybe didn't have to happen the way they did now, but the farms weren't the same then, technology wasn't the same, the money wasn't the same, the investments weren't the same. And so now also taking over a farm is not the same in the sense that kids who want to take over the farm have to have certain uh, you know, there's certain requirements now as well.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

Yeah, you're bang on in that, in that as well. I think it's it's not just as it used to be. I think the one thing that that you didn't mention though is that I I think the one thing that would be the same is the emotions would still be the same. I think they're probably if we go back and we're able to talk to some of these folks, what were those emotions like? Um are there was there uh an opportunity or you thought there was an opportunity to stay on the farm and it wasn't granted to you, or because you weren't the oldest son, maybe you're the the oldest daughter, but that wasn't an opportunity you had that wasn't granted to you. So I think the emotions are the same, but but you're absolutely right in everything else you said for sure.

SPEAKER_08 33:32

And I guess it's really, you know, maybe it's we're we're talking in February, and February is of course a time when we sort of reflect on mental health, especially in agriculture, those sorts of things. And you know, communication is just so important in all aspects of that, but it does sound like this can also contribute to some mental health issues.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

That's it. It's so easy to say, it's so easy on paper. Well, just start talking to each other, problem solved, end of discussion. It's not that easy. We know it's not that easy. We know um farmers, as they should be, are incredibly proud of their farm, of their family, and the work that they do. And and mental health absolutely plays a role um in in a farm transition for sure. We did a study a few years ago, I think just before COVID, in in finding out first that three out of four farmers are feeling stressed or overwhelmed. And anytime I say that at an event, I'm pretty sure a hundred percent of farmers nod their head. Yeah, we get that. I feel that we know there's a lot of stress. I mean, not talking about what's happening south of the border here and around the world, tariffs and things like that. It's the unpredictability of that for sure, I think, is a top factor, and and not being and and things out outside of farmers' control for sure negatively impacts their stress levels or their mental health. But one interesting fact that we found in that study was that women and young farmers uh have higher levels of stress compounded by two factors, which is maintaining family and farm team harmony, which we we already discussed about, which again makes sense, and farm transition planning. And it's those two things. Um that next generation thinking about what is that gonna look like. I haven't often I don't know what the transition plan is, and that's causing additional stress. And um, and we have a transition expert, um Trevor McLean from MMP, who who works with us really closely on our transition workshops, and he always says that um that the mom is the CEO of the farm, the chief emotional officer, and she is the one who's concerned about the family harmony. Once the farm is transitioned, are all of my kids, are all my grandkids going to be around my table for Thanksgiving? Are we all gonna be able to get together for Christmas? Are those relationships still gonna be intact? But just understanding that that there is a direct link in the uncertainty of the future of the farm and somebody's mental health. Um, and we are by no means mental health experts at all, but there are direct links between between those two things, but also understanding that it can take a toll, the whole process can take a really emotional toll on people. And there are resources, there is help out there. Um, I think across the country now, really readily available specifically to farmers. So um just yeah, take care of each other. It's a it's a tough battle to think about. Um, but but just look out for each other too and and understand that the end of the line in a farm transition plan is and is a successfully transitioned farm. Um, the future is is clearer for everybody, and relationships are still maintained and family harmony is still maintained. So yeah, mental health is incredibly important, especially in farm transition for sure.

SPEAKER_08 36:45

I think that might be just an amazing place to leave it. So thank

Noel Erskine

SPEAKER_08 36:49

you very much.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Noel Erskine is the fifth generation to work the family farm in Hitchinbrook, Quebec. Still in his twenties, he is the current owner of a successful dairy farm where he continues to work with his father, his uncles, and grandparents. He spoke with Sarah about his family's transition plans and how he decided to come home to the farm.

SPEAKER_08 37:25

So I'm talking uh with Noel Erskine of uh Lyftam Erskine in um Hensonbrook, and uh we're having a chat about uh succession or taking over the family farm and how to do this successfully. So there are three generations working on the farm still at this point.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

Yeah, so there is uh that's right. So there's myself and my father, uh, two uncles uh and then uh my grandfather and my grandmother.

SPEAKER_08 37:52

Wow. That must be a lot of fun. I'm assuming there also is sometimes some family drama, but it must be a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Yeah, I usually actually just today I was saying to somebody um that uh actually one of my favorite parts of farming is working with my father, my uncles, um, my grandfather, um, my grandmother, uh, working together and I guess feeling like at any given time, um, no matter how maybe stuck or I feel, I know there's there's quite a range of people that uh I can call for questions or um help hands-on at any project that that we're facing.

SPEAKER_08 38:34

Yeah, that must be nice. And so did you always plan on taking over the farm, or is that something that uh that kind of came to you a little bit later?

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Um I think I always enjoyed farming. And when you finish high school, there's sometimes kind of a lack of knowledge of what you want to do. Making the decision of what you want to do for the rest of your life was certainly a difficult decision. I wouldn't say that I always knew I wanted to farm, but it's always been a passion of mine. And uh after I started learning more about farming, um, once I was studying agriculture, um, I would say that's when I was certain that the rest of my life I'd be working in agriculture.

SPEAKER_08 39:25

Okay. Cause it's a big difference, I bet, from growing up on the farm where you're you're working, but you're kind of getting to do the fun stuff too.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Yeah, exactly. Uh I uh I always like doing the hands-on stuff, um milking cows, uh, drawing barns, uh taking care of animals, as you said. And then as I learn more about the financial side or the I guess the business side of of farming, I I realize that I actually really enjoy that part too. So um being able to enjoy both of those components of agriculture, I guess that's why I or I've continuing and plan on continuing to to farm.

SPEAKER_08 40:08

And so did your family sort of have a a plan in place?

SPEAKER_03 40:14

So as far as who would be taking over the farm, um at least at this time I'm the only one coming home. Um I was always a big part of the decisions that were made, I feel, on the farm, even before I came home full-time from school. Um you know, it was always a kind of a meeting of all of us sitting together talking about personal goals and business goals and how we were all gonna realize all of these goals. And so there was a plan in place, but there always was very much an open-mindedness amongst everybody of you know, everybody wants to work on the farm and live off the farm, but the no matter whose name is on the papers being the owner, everybody's opinions will always be accounted for when we're making decisions.

SPEAKER_08 41:13

It sounds like that's actually a really important part of it because yeah, of course, you've got two um younger siblings who I'm I'm guessing didn't want to come back to the farm.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 41:27

But like you said, you've also got a lot of cousins, and it sounds like there was a succession plan that happened even before you from your grandfather to your father and your uncles. Is that the case?

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah, exactly. So right now there's three generations on the farm. I'm the fifth generation um in total. Uh but yeah, I don't know, uh I don't know, I wasn't around much when my great grandfather was transitioning to my grandfather, but I know uh I know the transition from my grandfather to my father and my uncle um was also smooth at that point. There was uh a great uncle that was also on the farm, and uh he uh he didn't have children interested, didn't and so uh so there was just kind of a there, I guess a settlement and uh and uh transition to my father and my uncle.

SPEAKER_08 42:21

Um and so is this something you graduated from FMT?

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yes, farm management technology program at uh McDonnell College.

SPEAKER_08 42:33

Yes. So is this something that they talk to you about in the school? Um you know, this the idea of succession and and the importance of planning?

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Oh, absolutely. It's uh it's a it's a large part of of what we learn in the program. Um among other things, uh, you know, there was uh there were speakers that came in to to speak personally about their succession plans. Um you learn about um a lot of positive stories, uh you learn a lot about a lot of horror stories, um, and and all of it is is just about, I guess, planning, just just having something in place where if an accident happens, then there's there's uh still a chance for a future generation to to keep the farm going forward. Because I think at the end of the day, most farms, whether farmers, whether or not they're ready to really step back or and and let the next generation take over, uh, they want to see the farm continue.

SPEAKER_08 43:36

Yeah. And that must be part of the fun. Like it must be fun getting to work with your grandfather too, who's watched, like you said, the farm transition from his father to himself. And the just the technology and the change that's come into agriculture. Um, it must make for really interesting conversations sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Yeah, exactly. No, I I uh I uh I absolutely appreciate it. Uh I know.

SPEAKER_08 44:00

my grandfather says he he enjoys working with you know uh my generation with with me and and my cousins and uh and in and m my father and my uncle you know say the same thing they they they really enjoy working with with my generation and uh most of the time we're all in agreement and at the end of the day even if we're not all the agreement in agreement everybody just wants what's best for the farm yeah because of course those horror stories are are are very real and and it's it it it sounds like you guys have managed to avoid all of it and and keep the very best of sort of family farming.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

Yep yeah I'm very fortunate that everybody is um I would say more or less just easy to to get along with um you know if like I said everybody wants what's best for the farm and and sometimes we just have different opinions about how to go about realizing um the business or personal goals that we have. And so if it takes one person at the end of the day to say well you know I'm not part of the majority so I'll just keep my head down on this one and and we'll try things the way that other people want to try it.

SPEAKER_08 45:14

Do you think that you're gonna do things a little bit differently than your father and your grandfather?

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Yes. Uh you know agriculture is is gonna change uh there'll be a lot of things that I'll have to do differently um whether that's just being needing to follow regulatory uh or rules and regulations uh but uh I I I think uh I think for the for the most part uh you know there's always been the same idea of you know do as good of a job as you can um outside the barn to make things go well inside the barn and hopefully at the the end of the day that helps the farm's ability to be competitive and and continue.

SPEAKER_08 46:00

Yeah because you guys are in dairy so of course there's always that the competitive side of things and staying up with market changes, those sorts of things and and so the only other question I've had is there any advice that you've been given um I mean I'm uh I ask for advice about everything and everything every day from you know all the team we delegate labor, delegate plans to people or each other that we know you know oh they're they're gonna do well at this or or I'm gonna do well at this I'm gonna do this and so I ask for advice from everybody all the time.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

I feel like for farm transition you know advice that I've been given maybe in my schooling um was uh you know I guess try to listen and understand and make sure you actually ask the question and try to avoid uh you know assuming what somebody wants or or assuming people are okay with this or with that that actually asking the question like although sometimes is difficult uh actually it's usually pretty relieving for for all parties involved.

SPEAKER_08 47:11

So i did you bring up the idea of taking over the farm or was that something that was brought to you at first?

SPEAKER_03 47:18

No it was uh it was brought to me. Um like I said that's one another reason why I I think I was quite fortunate in that uh you know everybody was open minded about wanting the next generation to to come home and uh and at the end of the day even though it was gonna be a different name um on the papers that everybody was comfortable with delegating more work um seeing the next generation come home and change things and try to make things better whether or not you always agree with how the next generation is going about making things better. I guess watching that next step being taken uh everybody was was happy to see that happen.

SPEAKER_08 48:05

And I'm guessing sort of that you're you're hoping to kind of carry on that tradition then you've got like you said there's younger cousins for sure.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Exactly yeah we specifically uh have a you know hired labor so there's uh there's room for for more family to come home um I I'll I'll I'll welcome anybody there to to help out with with open arms and but at the end of the day if nobody if if it's not what people want to do I think it's important to to respect that as much as you know uh allowing people to come home when they when they choose to come home if if it's not something that that the next generation wants then we'll plan accordingly.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Well thank you

4-H - Mackenzie Peddie

SPEAKER_01 48:51

while farm succession is a multiphase and multi-year process that involves family members and resource people such as accountants and lawyers getting youth to think about farming and a career in agriculture early on is an important component in ensuring that there will be future farmers in Canada. The 4-H program engages with farm and rural youth to provide leadership and career skills with regards to becoming engaged in agriculture or taking on the succession of their family's farm. For this segment of the Farm to Food episode on farm succession, Mackenzie Petty, the Gleaner's junior reporter and also the Quebec member of the 4-H Canada Youth Advisory Committee talked to a few aspiring young farmers at the recent Quebec 4H Innovative Ag Tour in Sawyerville, Quebec. This is followed by our news reporter at the Gleaner, Callan Forrester, as she sat down with Christina Frank, the newly appointed CEO for 4-H Canada, to talk about the role 4-H plays in getting young people involved in agriculture. The two discussed how 4-H sets up farmers for leadership success and the skills that they get to learn to do by doing that's the 4-H motto by participating in different 4 H activities across the country. Christina also gives some advice to young farmers who are figuring out what they want to do with their careers what's your name my name is Caleb Herring and where are you from Caleb?

SPEAKER_09 50:28

Sorvo Quebec all right now Caleb do you see yourself in an agricultural career in 10 years yeah yeah what kind of career um just like a little hobby farm with my main beef air fruit nice thank you um which club are you from and where do you see yourself in five to ten years I see myself owning a couple of beef cows for a show string and would that be like a hobby or full time probably a hobby because I want to be a teacher thank you my name is Nathan Johnson where are you from Nathan Richmond Quebec do you have a family farm Nathan what kind of animals I have uh beef shorthorn cattle and beef purfer cattle and do you plan on taking over that farm when your day comes hopefully someday that's nice do you have any ideas on what you want anything you want to do with the farm do you want to like expand it I'd like to make the barn a bit bigger and just show more animals. Thank you Nathan Peyton what club are you from? Alright Peyton are you planning on inheriting the family farm?

SPEAKER_05 51:46

Yeah I do I would really like to have a farm whenever I grow up and I want to do agriculture whenever I'm older. Perfect and what made you decide like this was it for you this is what you're planning to do this year I really want to do it because I love animals and I love gardening and I love milking cows. It's really fun in my opinion so I want to inherit the farm so that I can continue that dream. Perfect thank you.

SPEAKER_06 52:12

You're welcome

4-H - Christina Franc

SPEAKER_06 52:15

so today I'm here with Christina Frank who is the new executive director of 4H. We're really excited to have you on the the podcast today to talk a little bit more about succession farming and succession planning. And I would love to know if you wanted to maybe introduce yourself and start by telling us a little bit about um your experience with 4-H and and how you've sort of jumped into this new role recently.

SPEAKER_07 52:37

Yeah thanks so much I'm really excited to be here um I uh I I have an interesting story with 4-H in that I didn't know 4-H as a child uh I grew up without it but then I came to live in Ormstown Quebec and I fell in love with what 4-H does and the mission of 4 H uh through Humanerd actually um he he started to ignite that passion. And so in working with him I moved here I met a lot of people uh and and somehow knew I would be end up working for 4-H Canada at some point. And so I was uh I worked as a communications advisor with Quanglo and then I moved to work for the Canadian Association of Fairs and Exhibitions as the executive director. Then I did a little stint uh United Way Canada and came back here when this opportunity popped up. So it kind of is a full circle moment. I really am passionate about agriculture and youth development and have become fully converted. I married a dairy and maple syrup producer and they are diehard 4-Hers. So yeah it's really full circle.

SPEAKER_06 53:48

Where are you from originally before moving dormstown?

SPEAKER_07 53:51

Uh so I grew up mostly in Ottawa uh in the subdivid Orleans subdivision.

SPEAKER_06 53:55

Okay cool. Well we're happy to have you in the region now. That's awesome. And so yeah you're now the executive director. That's very exciting. How have you been enjoying this this new role?

SPEAKER_07 54:07

It's very new. I'm I think I'm just hitting the two month mark in a matter of days. I absolutely love it. Uh it's I have there's a great team there's passionate board members uh the entire like the community and network the province the members they're just so dedicated and inspiring and uh so we've launched a new strategic plan and I've really been sinking my teeth into that and how we can execute it over the next two years and it's it's absolutely my forte and things I love.

SPEAKER_06 54:39

So I'd love to know from your perspective as someone who is you know obviously very much immersed in the world of 4-H how is succession planning for these young farmers sort of built into 4-H and um how are they sort of exposed to these ideas from a younger age?

SPEAKER_07 54:55

I think what 4-H does really well is work on those soft skills that are going to become increasingly important uh in in the new era of AI even. But it really helps with succession and the foundation because it gets them thinking about uh different opportunities, different ways of operating uh it focuses our skill set for when I talk about soft skills I'm talking about um problem solving and adaptability and leadership. So they see themselves as a leader on their own farm and in their own art but like in their own business. So we're really working on the fundamentals and foundation while giving them the chance to explore we have programs related to STEM related to environment all sorts of stuff so they really get uh it's a really holistic uh perspective as they look to what they want to do in the future.

SPEAKER_06 55:41

Yeah that's that's really cool. I think it's so important to start kids building those skills really young and building that confidence really young. For you why is it important that we push these sort of uh leadership skills on people when they're younger and and make sure that they're um confident as leaders from a young age.

SPEAKER_07 56:00

First thing I would say is it's a lot easier to teach when they're younger. We all know children's minds are sponges. They're learning how to operate and those fundamental habits and skills are being set. And so yeah, that's the time to do it. I think there's also a real gap right now in um in developing those skill sets. We don't see it as much anymore. It's less of a priority and so that's a really important role for us to play because it ties to so much, right? Critical thinking and being able to look at a situation and resolve it and look at it in from different angles and perspectives and the risks associated with it. I mean honestly you're never too young to learn these things and with them like with our motto of learn to do by doing that really puts that to practice. And so um instilling those skills so it becomes second nature uh makes it second nature for a lifetime.

SPEAKER_06 56:54

Absolutely yeah yeah I like that idea second nature for a lifetime is a really great way of of phrasing that I think something we're talking about a bit on this episode and um something that I think a lot of people are feeling impacts of is that you know the average ages of farmers is increasing. Less people are taking over family farms.

SPEAKER_07 57:13

How is 4-H sort of adapting with that and and uh addressing that with their community it is so funny is because I just had a conversation with the executive director of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture and we were talking about exactly this because young farmers in their organization is uh under 40 whereas our you know youth caps out kind of at 25. And so you're right like this is this is a significant age gap and a significant uh skills uh pipeline that needs to be worked on so what we're doing to that end is we're working with our partners and our peers in our provinces to create uh a robust talent pipeline and to expose people, expose youth to the opportunities out there. We're starting to have some conversations about um ag tech careers um and how you can get involved in those and how you can integrate them on your own farm um to show uh the excitement and the opportunity in agriculture that it's not uh you know that photo the famous portrait of the guy with the pitchfork like we're well past that you can have an exciting career in agriculture so we're showing the excitement we're giving the skills we're partnering to to expose them and give them networking opportunities from you know the youngest ages to up to where we cap at 25 and then even exploring uh those partnerships with some great organizations.

SPEAKER_06 58:37

Yeah that's like an interesting perspective that you know as technology and AI develops so will what farming looks like and so will the jobs that are available in the realm of agriculture and farming. I hadn't really thought about that. I know that obviously we're seeing more and more tech being introduced and more and more um yeah developments on that end but I didn't think about how that will now there will have to be people in charge of those things too.

SPEAKER_07 59:02

Well and I think too like even on your own farm I look at our farm we're not very tech heavy right now um but the new machine we just got has uh Wi-Fi abilities Bluetooth to our phone gives us data um so even having the youth understand that in your own operation there's so much opportunity for advancements you can do calf checks on your phone and get notifications like it's wild the opportunity that technology has yeah totally um and you like you said 4-H deals with youth that is mostly 25-ish and under do you have any like resources set up for farmers who or young farmers who may be wanting to take over the family farm and then are you know getting to the age where they might be aging out.

SPEAKER_06 59:48

How does that sort of transition work?

SPEAKER_07 59:50

I wouldn't say we necessarily have we're like direct resources in that sense. That's where we would look to our partners and direct youth that way we are looking at a senior youth engagement program and how do we engage them again to make sure they have fundamental skills to take on the world. And so that is uh a new aspect we're taking on in our strategic plan and we're formulating and it's going to be very youth led of what do you need and what can we offer you and and that sort of stuff. So we'll see what comes of that. That's the the next era of 4-H Canada and I'm excited to see what comes with that.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:26

Nice. That's exciting and it's exciting to hear that it's led from the youth and the people who need it directly so that it'll be targeted to directly uh what is in high demand right now.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:35

Absolutely yeah we want to make sure it resonates and it's not going to resonate if they're not part of the process.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:40

Absolutely yeah yeah and do you have any advice um from your position uh for young people who are maybe in that decision phase where they have to decide is this what I want to be doing? Do I want to explore other options? Like how do how does someone navigate that? Because I think that's a really big and scary decision for a lot of young people.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:59

Yeah I think uh a couple of little tidbits the first would be to have lots of conversations with all sorts of different people just you know uh casual conversations with your peers, your family um people in in the world of agriculture even really take advantage of that networking opportunity to to be curious about things. The other thing I think of is my husband his his family kind of has a I wouldn't say a rule but this notion that before you decide to take on the farm or invest in the farm you absolutely should work somewhere else to see um what it's like what they do and even if it's another agricultural operation right what it's like what they do what you can do differently um just expand your horizons a little bit and make you uh yeah see new perspectives so for example my husband he did work off farm for a couple of different uh opportunities but he did an exchange in New Zealand and he's to the to this day he talks about it and that experience and what he learned and so uh he was there for about six months and learned so much. So I think uh before you make your decision go out and see the world a little bit is is the biggest advice I would give.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:12

Yeah that's that's such good advice I think and I think that's applicable to literally any career form that you know you it's so easy to be one track minded but it's really important to know yourself and to explore a little bit before you make any long-term decisions for your life.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:27

Exactly and there's some great opportunities in 4-H to do that just a little plug do you want to share what some of those opportunities are? Yeah so I think we're working on some club to club exchanges across Canada. We have professional development opportunities we have our members forum which often pairs at a agricultural event like the Royal Winter Fair tied to professional development. Some of our clubs also do international exchanges as well. So these are more short-term opportunities but it gets you out seeing different things.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:58

Cool yeah that's great to know um cool I think that that is everything I wanted to ask you today about our our topic um but is there anything else that you want to add before we wrap up I think just reiterating that the uh there's a lot to think about and a lot to consider in succession.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:15

And it's you have to think very systematically like and strategically it's not operations and it's not A plus B equals C. It's a spider's web to consider. And sorry I'm gonna go on a bit of a tangent so you can totally practice. One of our youth that I was speaking with uh in Calgary recently he inspired me because he said listen I am doing my journeyman hours to work machinery and I'm working with a company so I know how to work and operate machinery and fix it. And he said and my brother is studying finance right now and my sister is currently you know working on the operations of the farm. So the plan is the three of them will take over but they'll have a broad suite of skills when they take over they'll have finance they'll have operations they'll have machinery technology that sort of stuff I'd like to attribute that to the 4-H program but I think that's just part of the spider's web notion. So I would advise and encourage people looking at succession whether it's the parents or the kids to think about uh the opportunities and to think of it as a spider's web and how many pieces you can connect all together.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:21

Yeah that's so cool that that kid has the opportunity to work on you know one sector and then the siblings work on other sectors. That's a really beautiful sort of family affair and and um feels very community oriented to be like we're gonna do this together and not just have one person hoard all the skills, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:38

Exactly right and it proves it can be done. It's hard but it can be done.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:42

Well thank you so much for all of your knowledge and insight today. This has been so great to learn a little bit more. Thanks again for having me. Of course thank you for joining us for this episode of the Farm to Food Podcast. We'd like to thank our sponsors for helping to bring this initiative to life and Quinn Farm in Notre Dame de Ipero for promotional support.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

We'd also like to thank the Community Media Strategic Support Fund and the Government of Canada for their financial support as well as the BIEC program for their contribution to equip the podcast studio.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:11

This program is made possible by the volunteer directors on the board of the Shattue Valley Community Information Services a nonprofit social enterprise with charitable status. We would love your support to keep this podcast going. Donations can be made at farmtofood.ca and we can issue tax receipts for donations over $25.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:29

And of course our thanks to Farmer Phil who opened up the show be sure to join us in two weeks for the next Farm to Food Podcast episode we'll have more interesting stories about farming and food from the land to your kitchen table. Thanks for listening